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Guess this game didn't garner a following like DMC. Board is dead.

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Cmac4

Mar 25, 2012 7:41 pm GMT
Bear_in_Action posted...
From: blackhrt | #012
Or sometimes they felt if they could surprise us with the female lead in some way then we would put it in the back of our mind (like Tomb Raider). I personally don't care which gender is the lead. If its a good game I'm playing it.
I think it's easier to garner a bigger audience when the lead is a tough male; since the majority of gamers are males, it is easier to create a relatable male character and leave it at that.

When I recommended Bayonetta to my brother-in-law, he said, and I quote, "hmm... but it's weird playing as a woman." And that was pretty much the end of the conversation.
I understand, though, if I had a choice, I'd always pick female characters first (Anya in Gears, female Shep in Mass Effect, etc)

I'd think that the fact that this game in perticular is so sexualized would attract more men. I used to play WoW and most of my male friends played female characters and when I'd ask em why they'd respond something like "I'd rather spend hours looking at a chicks butt".

I can't believe there's actually people who avoid good games just because you play as a certain gender. That's just sad
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Lacrymosa143

Mar 29, 2012 1:40 pm GMT
only the first DMC was good, all of the others suck. To me Bayonetta replaced DMC.
JCuster

Mar 31, 2012 8:58 am GMT
I'll go out on a limb and say that I liked the way this game played for the most part(aside from the Motorbike/Missile stages...would have been nice to skip the missile one). The combat and boss fights were excellent!! Bosses and enemies were awesomely designed, and the summon creatures were nice. But I just hated the way this game looked and sounded.

I found Bayo's personality kind of annoying after a while, and the story's told in an odd fashion. I can get that she's supposed to be over-sexualized, but I don't find her design attractive(big boobs and ass on a stick figure? with a cone-shaped head? Really, Kamiya?). Maybe if she just looked like she had a more human female figure, I dunno...And the J-Pop soundtrack didn't really click with me(I did like the boss themes, though).

I didn't understand until long after I played this that it was supposed to be weird. I have no problem with playing as a female in video games(I've kicked ass with a ton of them...). To compare this with, say, God Hand, another weird beat-em-up title: I enjoyed the sense of humor and absurdity along with the minimal, but easier-to-follow plot. It felt like the true sequel to DMC1, with pinch of Viewtiful Joe thrown in, just that the character designer was high most of the time, lol.
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mad_hax_man

Apr 2, 2012 1:07 am GMT
Bear_in_Action posted...
Also, believe it or not, when the game was first released, a lot of boys spent quite a lot of time being butt-hurt over Bayonetta being a woman. Some people have an issue playing as a woman, I guess, it somehow hurts their manhood.

I hate this excuse. I'm not saying that Bayonetta is a bad game. Of course not. Its still pretty much the best hack and slash game this generation. But to blame the state of this board on sexism is just wrong.

I do think the main character is partly to blame. The sheer excessiveness of the character (and the game in general), even when compared its older brother the DMC series, just turns people off. I also felt that Bayonetta lacked a certain charisma Dante had.

But that's okay. What I think I love about Bayonetta more than anything, more than the humor, or the over the top cutscenes or even the battle system itself is the fact that there was no, or little attempt to make this game "accessible to a more casual crowd". You just need to remember that means there is a fanbase out there to keep this board a float
Lacrymosa143

Apr 7, 2012 1:41 pm GMT
mad_hax_man posted...
Bear_in_Action posted...
Also, believe it or not, when the game was first released, a lot of boys spent quite a lot of time being butt-hurt over Bayonetta being a woman. Some people have an issue playing as a woman, I guess, it somehow hurts their manhood.

I hate this excuse. I'm not saying that Bayonetta is a bad game. Of course not. Its still pretty much the best hack and slash game this generation. But to blame the state of this board on sexism is just wrong.

I do think the main character is partly to blame. The sheer excessiveness of the character (and the game in general), even when compared its older brother the DMC series, just turns people off. I also felt that Bayonetta lacked a certain charisma Dante had.

But that's okay. What I think I love about Bayonetta more than anything, more than the humor, or the over the top cutscenes or even the battle system itself is the fact that there was no, or little attempt to make this game "accessible to a more casual crowd". You just need to remember that means there is a fanbase out there to keep this board a float
Even when they dont try, and dont notice, people trivialize the accomplishments and character of women. If dante was a woman people might find him annoying, and just see him as merely sexy. Bayonetta may have been created with sexist ideals but at least the producer had the guts to make this game with a badass female character and not take rhe easy route and make another male lead.
squeakthedragon

Apr 7, 2012 8:36 pm GMT
The thing about Bayonetta, the character, is that she is a satire of the default sexist view of women in male oriented media like movies, comics, and video games.

Bayonetta as a woman, pretends to offer up a sexualized image, but she disdains men and is not manipulated by their attempts to manipulate her. In effect, she uses her sexualized image and behavior to taunt the male audience; she has no intention of giving them what they want to really see, and is mocking them.

As a form of satire it's subtle in its real goal and pushes boundaries so it was inevitable that half or more of the audience wouldn't get it. Male gamers are insecure about their manhood enough as it is. Sadly, a lot of female gamers also took offense, in part because they refused to believe that a game creator would actually have a positive image of women behind the mask of the satire. Still, a few female gamers actually did get the joke and appreciated Bayonetta.

If one really thinks about the storyline in the game, whenever anything truly serious is going on, especially the emotional plot twists during the end stages, Bayonetta does NOT behave in a sexualized, mocking, and faux-immature manner. In those scenes, she is mature, compassionate, and highly intelligent. That's when the real woman behind the facade comes out.

As for the board being dead - it's simple. As a game Bayonetta is a true classic and people are still playing and replaying it to this day. But it's only one game. It's not a universe and dynasty of games like Devil May Cry, so... there's just not a lot to talk about. Not a lot of material for fans to be fannish about. One isolated single player action game does not a community make.

That doesn't change what a great game Bayonetta is. It's probably tied with Ninja Gaiden Black as the finest action fighting game of all time.
mad_hax_man

Apr 8, 2012 4:04 am GMT
Lacrymosa143 posted...

Even when they dont try, and dont notice, people trivialize the accomplishments and character of women. If dante was a woman people might find him annoying, and just see him as merely sexy.

There's now way to prove that Dante wouldn't work as a woman. It could be that Dante is just more likable. Even if we could, it doesn't automatically mean that the only thing people don't like about her is that she's a female.

Bayonetta may have been created with sexist ideals but at least the producer had the guts to make this game with a badass female character and not take rhe easy route and make another male lead.

I wouldn't say Kamiya using a female lead is brave. Don't get me wrong, I do think there is a distinct lack of decently written female leads, and I applaud Kamiya for attempting it. I think it shows he's willing to play with ideas and conventions that others wouldn't think about. But in an industry that's given us Samus {Metroid), Terra (FFVI), Lara Croft {TR}, Lenneth {VP}, I wouldn't call it gutsy.

Okay, yes there are some fans out there that wouldn't be comfortable playing as a female, and yes, the whole "Bayonetta would loose against Dante because she's a woman" sexism does pop its head up every now and again. But those guys are in the clear minority. And one of the great things about making games with a more dedicated (almost cult status) fan base is that you don't have to sell your game to everyone.

squeakthedragon posted...
The thing about Bayonetta, the character, is that she is a satire of the default sexist view of women in male oriented media like movies, comics, and video games.

Bayonetta as a woman, pretends to offer up a sexualized image, but she disdains men and is not manipulated by their attempts to manipulate her. In effect, she uses her sexualized image and behavior to taunt the male audience; she has no intention of giving them what they want to really see, and is mocking them.

As a form of satire it's subtle in its real goal and pushes boundaries so it was inevitable that half or more of the audience wouldn't get it. Male gamers are insecure about their manhood enough as it is. Sadly, a lot of female gamers also took offense, in part because they refused to believe that a game creator would actually have a positive image of women behind the mask of the satire. Still, a few female gamers actually did get the joke and appreciated Bayonetta.

If one really thinks about the storyline in the game, whenever anything truly serious is going on, especially the emotional plot twists during the end stages, Bayonetta does NOT behave in a sexualized, mocking, and faux-immature manner. In those scenes, she is mature, compassionate, and highly intelligent. That's when the real woman behind the facade comes out.

Uhmmmm, what?

Bayonetta is simply an affectionate parody of the Femme Fatale character type (In the same way Dante is a parody of the 80's action and anime characters), but I wouldn't go so far as call it a satire (she doesn't deconstruct, or reveal anything damning about the character type).

I've seen the whole satire argument before, but the simple fact of the matter is that Bayonetta's sexuality is exploited to attract the attention of a primarily male fanbase.
I'm not going to wave a feminist stick around, because simple escapism (Including pornorgaphy) can co exist along side more intelligent and empowering portrayals of woman.
Lacrymosa143

Apr 9, 2012 8:00 pm GMT
mad_hax_man posted...

There's now way to prove that Dante wouldn't work as a woman. It could be that Dante is just more likable. Even if we could, it doesn't automatically mean that the only thing people don't like about her is that she's a female.

I wouldn't say Kamiya using a female lead is brave. Don't get me wrong, I do think there is a distinct lack of decently written female leads, and I applaud Kamiya for attempting it. I think it shows he's willing to play with ideas and conventions that others wouldn't think about. But in an industry that's given us Samus {Metroid), Terra (FFVI), Lara Croft {TR}, Lenneth {VP}, I wouldn't call it gutsy.

Yes there is. For every female lead, or just strong female character, there are many times more male equivalents in personality, strength, and accomplishments. And over and over are they trivialized compared to the male equivalents. Terra is probably the most powerful of the main characters in the Final Fantasy series (Lightning is probably tied), yet she is trivialized compared to Cloud, and even to Locke at times in her own game. Also there isn't one female character in a video game that speaks that i haven't heard someone say is annoying or he doesn't like her. Yet i don't hear the same said about male characters that are even more annoying. I think Dante is annoying and I'm positive way more people would find him annoying if he was female. And this is why I say Kamiya was brave to make Bayonetta a female character, and even more so a BADASS female character. Because again, some men would be insecure to see Bayonetta kicking more ass than male characters.
Bear_in_Action

Apr 21, 2012 1:06 pm GMT
From: mad_hax_man | #024
I hate this excuse. I'm not saying that Bayonetta is a bad game. Of course not. Its still pretty much the best hack and slash game this generation. But to blame the state of this board on sexism is just wrong.

I don't believe it to be sexism.
The fact that almost every single game with a sexy female on the cover usually turns out to be crap and also sells like crap (except for Tomb Raider) doesn't help Bayonetta's case.
I was merely stating what this board was like, what the Youtube comments were like and what I've heard from my fellow male friends. There are these people who thought Bayonetta was only targeting horny teenagers, and that the game was as shallow as that. Heck, there are even feminists making videos and talking against Bayonetta on Youtube, thinking that the game would only sell because of the boobies and butt. Do I think this might have hurt the potential sales? Absolutely.

It's not that these men surely have something against women, it's just that they may have the wrong perception of what the game stands for. My brother-in-law doesn't look down on my because I'm a woman, he's just... not comfortable playing as a woman.

To be fair, I play a ton of western RPGs, and I almost always play as female because I feel more connected to the character that way. I can understand when some men can't get into a game because the lead is female.
I only have an issue when they think Bayonetta was only a brainless big breast sex symbol, with emphasis on brainless.
Bear_in_Action

Apr 21, 2012 1:00 pm GMT
From: Cmac4 | #021
I'd think that the fact that this game in perticular is so sexualized would attract more men. I used to play WoW and most of my male friends played female characters and when I'd ask em why they'd respond something like "I'd rather spend hours looking at a chicks butt".

I can't believe there's actually people who avoid good games just because you play as a certain gender. That's just sad

Haha, sadly, my fiance himself was on the same boat until I whined about it enough. He did finish the game, but he also admitted that he preferred male leads. I don't blame him, though, I put off Gears of War for the longest time because I didn't think I'd enjoy playing as a macho man (and I admit I was wrong, lol, because I ended up really loving the series)

I think it's more about being able to connect to the character rather than just seeing him/her.
Bear_in_Action

Apr 21, 2012 1:04 pm GMT
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
DuDuDu10101

Apr 26, 2012 7:50 pm GMT
i'm actually really impressed by the developers going for cult classics rather than rampant sequals

i mean, DMC was great, DMC 2 was a slap in all fan's faces... DMC3 saved it... then DMC 4 made people scratching their head... they even have to reboot the whole franchise just to keep it relevant...

but in bayonetta's case.. it'll always be that 1 gem of a game that was incredible through the ages...

just like vanquish...

and lets pray for anarchy reigns as well
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This will continue until you make proper gamefaqs messages.
Lacrymosa143

Apr 27, 2012 8:25 am GMT
DuDuDu10101 posted...
i'm actually really impressed by the developers going for cult classics rather than rampant sequals

i mean, DMC was great, DMC 2 was a slap in all fan's faces... DMC3 saved it... then DMC 4 made people scratching their head... they even have to reboot the whole franchise just to keep it relevant...

but in bayonetta's case.. it'll always be that 1 gem of a game that was incredible through the ages...

just like vanquish...

and lets pray for anarchy reigns as well

Dmc3 may have saved it but its not as good as the first. Only bayonetta follows up on the original, and even one ups it.
mad_hax_man

Apr 28, 2012 3:29 am GMT
Lacrymosa143 posted...
Yes there is. For every female lead, or just strong female character, there are many times more male equivalents in personality, strength, and accomplishments. And over and over are they trivialized compared to the male equivalents. Terra is probably the most powerful of the main characters in the Final Fantasy series (Lightning is probably tied), yet she is trivialized compared to Cloud, and even to Locke at times in her own game. Also there isn't one female character in a video game that speaks that i haven't heard someone say is annoying or he doesn't like her. Yet i don't hear the same said about male characters that are even more annoying. I think Dante is annoying and I'm positive way more people would find him annoying if he was female.

The last sentence will always be conjecture on your part. But the simple fact is that I would struggle to think of one character that hasn't had some kind of backlash. Relative to the rest of the FF leads, (which I remind you includes Cloud, Squall, Tidus and Vaan), Terra (her FFVI incarnation) would have one of the smallest hatedoms.
And yes, in any discussion about protagonist strengths, Terra always ranks up the top with Cloud and Zidane

From my talks with other boards, Heather is easily one of the most popular Silent Hill protagonists, I've never seen a bad word said against Lenneth, making Samus more vulnerable caused a massive backlash in the Metroid fanbase. And while she probably isn't effected be her gender as much as other characters, Kamiya is also the guy that gave us Amaterasu

And this is why I say Kamiya was brave to make Bayonetta a female character, and even more so a BADASS female character. Because again, some men would be insecure to see Bayonetta kicking more ass than male characters.

Not caring about a small part of your potential audience who have problems playing with women, especially if you're not trying to make massive numbers to begin with, isn't brave. Sure, the whole idea behind the game (creating a hack and slash game with no intention of catering to those outside of the cult demographic), but having a woman, while shows Kamiya will try to make the best game he thinks regardless of the numbers he sells isn't brave. If he made it about a gay man trying to save his boyfriend, then that would be brave, as homosexuality still brings up massive controversy and is much more likely to loss sales numbers than having a woman as a lead character.
mad_hax_man

Apr 28, 2012 3:30 am GMT
Bear_in_Action posted...
I don't believe it to be sexism.
The fact that almost every single game with a sexy female on the cover usually turns out to be crap and also sells like crap (except for Tomb Raider) doesn't help Bayonetta's case.
I was merely stating what this board was like, what the Youtube comments were like and what I've heard from my fellow male friends. There are these people who thought Bayonetta was only targeting horny teenagers, and that the game was as shallow as that. Heck, there are even feminists making videos and talking against Bayonetta on Youtube, thinking that the game would only sell because of the boobies and butt. Do I think this might have hurt the potential sales? Absolutely.

I hate to harp on about the same point over and over again, but the only audience Bayonetta was ever concerned with was the Hack and Slash audience that bought it because it was Kamiya returning to the genre that he helped to create.

I admit that Bayonetta both as a character and just being woman hurt some sales and I think too much of the PR was given to her sex appeal. I just think that there are so many other factors involved that I don't think any inherit bias against woman or sexy woman is high on that list of factors.

Lacrymosa143 posted...
Dmc3 may have saved it but its not as good as the first. Only bayonetta follows up on the original, and even one ups it.

I don't know why DMC fans need to constantly pit DMC1 and 3 against each other. Even if you liked DMC1 better, DMC3 pushed the DMC series forward in so many aspects and yes, is an extremely strong follow up to DMC1. Bayonetta itself is a follow up from DMC1, 3 and 4.
Lacrymosa143

Apr 28, 2012 5:43 am GMT
mad_hax_man posted...
Lacrymosa143 posted...
Yes there is. For every female lead, or just strong female character, there are many times more male equivalents in personality, strength, and accomplishments. And over and over are they trivialized compared to the male equivalents. Terra is probably the most powerful of the main characters in the Final Fantasy series (Lightning is probably tied), yet she is trivialized compared to Cloud, and even to Locke at times in her own game. Also there isn't one female character in a video game that speaks that i haven't heard someone say is annoying or he doesn't like her. Yet i don't hear the same said about male characters that are even more annoying. I think Dante is annoying and I'm positive way more people would find him annoying if he was female.

The last sentence will always be conjecture on your part. But the simple fact is that I would struggle to think of one character that hasn't had some kind of backlash. Relative to the rest of the FF leads, (which I remind you includes Cloud, Squall, Tidus and Vaan), Terra (her FFVI incarnation) would have one of the smallest hatedoms.
And yes, in any discussion about protagonist strengths, Terra always ranks up the top with Cloud and Zidane

From my talks with other boards, Heather is easily one of the most popular Silent Hill protagonists, I've never seen a bad word said against Lenneth, making Samus more vulnerable caused a massive backlash in the Metroid fanbase. And while she probably isn't effected be her gender as much as other characters, Kamiya is also the guy that gave us Amaterasu

And this is why I say Kamiya was brave to make Bayonetta a female character, and even more so a BADASS female character. Because again, some men would be insecure to see Bayonetta kicking more ass than male characters.

Not caring about a small part of your potential audience who have problems playing with women, especially if you're not trying to make massive numbers to begin with, isn't brave. Sure, the whole idea behind the game (creating a hack and slash game with no intention of catering to those outside of the cult demographic), but having a woman, while shows Kamiya will try to make the best game he thinks regardless of the numbers he sells isn't brave. If he made it about a gay man trying to save his boyfriend, then that would be brave, as homosexuality still brings up massive controversy and is much more likely to loss sales numbers than having a woman as a lead character.

I'd one up that and say, it would be more brave to make androgynous homosexual women as the lead characters. There was already the ballad of gay tony. and people are fine with lesbians as long as they are the lipstick type.
mad_hax_man

Apr 28, 2012 3:44 pm GMT
Lacrymosa143 posted...

I'd one up that and say, it would be more brave to make androgynous homosexual women as the lead characters. There was already the ballad of gay tony. and people are fine with lesbians as long as they are the lipstick type.

I would like to see a Silent Hill which features a transgender coming to terms with their identity
Lacrymosa143

Apr 29, 2012 5:48 am GMT
mad_hax_man posted...
Lacrymosa143 posted...

I'd one up that and say, it would be more brave to make androgynous homosexual women as the lead characters. There was already the ballad of gay tony. and people are fine with lesbians as long as they are the lipstick type.

I would like to see a Silent Hill which features a transgender coming to terms with their identity

do you mean Transexual? If so then i agree. There is a difference between transgender and transexual. If you aren't cisgender then you are transgender. Cisgender is if you behave the way your culture defines your sex to be, which is really just made up.
Hated_Darkness

Apr 30, 2012 11:07 am GMT
http://spong.com/article/26926/Rumour-Bayonetta-2-Has-Been-Cancelled

Possible bad news for people who wanted the sequel.
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Impossible is just a word. The reality is in fact far more horrifying.
rice_noodles

Apr 30, 2012 12:13 pm GMT
A gaming site that I have never heard of, is telling me that a game that was never even announced, is now rumored the be cancelled, from an unspecified source.

Okay.