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A question about the bible and literality
- Jan 10, 2008 1:18 am GMT
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The Atheism Union: Reasonable, logical discussion of the unreasonable and illogical
"The unexamined life is not worth living"-Socrates
Okay so many parts of the bible aren't meant to be interpreted literally right? Genesis,Adam & Eveetc. Well what if the ressurection of Jesus was just another allegory or symbolic story? Maybe Jesus' resurrection wasn't physical but spiritual. Maybe it represents how our soulsascend to heaven.
Just a thought I had when I read this passage in the bible:
I Corinthians 15, 35"But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."
Maybe, being largely ignorant of the bible,I'm taking this passage out of context. But could it be that Jesus didn't miraculously rise from the dead?
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- Jan 10, 2008 1:24 am GMTDid you have any doubt he didn't rise from the grave? Or that a virgin gave birth? Or that a bush can't talk? ... etc
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- Jan 10, 2008 1:31 am GMT
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The Atheism Union: Reasonable, logical discussion of the unreasonable and illogical
"The unexamined life is not worth living"-Socrates
[QUOTE="SimpJee"]Did you have any doubt he didn't rise from the grave? Or that a virgin gave birth? Or that a bush can't talk? ... etc[/QUOTE]
I made up my mind quite a while ago that he most likely did not in fact ressurect but now I have an actual argument to work with. More and more people go with the "it's not meant to be literal" argument nowadays I just thought that the resurrection might be the next thing. However I'm also very obtuse when it comes to interpreting the bible so I thought I'd seek the help of OT.
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- Jan 10, 2008 1:55 am GMT
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debateWell, if its all going to be symbolic, I might as well start believing in the bible.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Jan 10, 2008 2:34 am GMT
"44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."
this verse is talking about the normal human's human body. not Christ's body. but you may have something there.
approach towards my general direction, BRETHREN."44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."
this verse is talking about the normal human's human body. not Christ's body. but you may have something there. :)
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- Jan 10, 2008 3:58 am GMT
The OT is not meant to be a literal translation of the science at work.
Reading your passage...I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion.
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:03 am GMT
Some parts of the Bible are meant to be literal and other parts not depending upon the literary genre of the part written. The books of Genesis, Exodus, Levicus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are called the Torah. They are books about the history of the Covenant that God has for his people leading up to the time of Moses. They are literal in every way. Books like the Gospels which include Jesus' birth and Resurrection are to be treated as literal because of their literary genre as well. There are sayings however that are spoken within those books, however, that are not to be treated as literal. Just as we may use unliteral sarcasm or imagery to get our points across, so does Jesus and the writers of the Gospels. You mentioned context, it's good to see that you at least are aware that context is indeed important. Nothing has meaning without it. According the context of the Bible itself and it's literary genres, it does say that Jesus literally died and rose from the dead.
Later on in that same chapter within 1 Corinthians it says in verse 53, "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." Then it goes on to say in verse 57, "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus died and rose again to overcome our sin so that those who believe in him will have everlasting life.
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:09 am GMT[QUOTE="mindstorm"]
Some parts of the Bible are meant to be literal and other parts not depending upon the literary genre of the part written. The books of Genesis, Exodus, Levicus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are called the Torah. They are books about the history of the Covenant that God has for his people leading up to the time of Moses. They are literal in every way. Books like the Gospels which include Jesus' birth and Resurrection are to be treated as literal because of their literary genre as well. There are sayings however that are spoken within those books, however, that are not to be treated as literal. Just as we may use unliteral sarcasm or imagery to get our points across, so does Jesus and the writers of the Gospels. You mentioned context, it's good to see that you at least are aware that context is indeed important. Nothing has meaning without it. According the context of the Bible itself and it's literary genres, it does say that Jesus literally died and rose from the dead.
Later on in that same chapter within 1 Corinthians it says in verse 53, "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." Then it goes on to say in verse 57, "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus died and rose again to overcome our sin so that those who believe in him will have everlasting life.
[/QUOTE]
I take exception to your impression of the OT. Genesis is not meant to be taken literal. The story of creation was not meant as the actual steps take but more in line withthe world was created by the hand of God...and Adam & Eve are not merely two individuals but the start of humanity. Likewise, the flood was the flood of the world as it was known at the time and not the entire planet. There is historical evidence of such a flood.
One should use the understanding of the world as a companion to Biblical text.
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:27 am GMT[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]
Some parts of the Bible are meant to be literal and other parts not depending upon the literary genre of the part written. The books of Genesis, Exodus, Levicus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are called the Torah. They are books about the history of the Covenant that God has for his people leading up to the time of Moses. They are literal in every way. Books like the Gospels which include Jesus' birth and Resurrection are to be treated as literal because of their literary genre as well. There are sayings however that are spoken within those books, however, that are not to be treated as literal. Just as we may use unliteral sarcasm or imagery to get our points across, so does Jesus and the writers of the Gospels. You mentioned context, it's good to see that you at least are aware that context is indeed important. Nothing has meaning without it. According the context of the Bible itself and it's literary genres, it does say that Jesus literally died and rose from the dead.
Later on in that same chapter within 1 Corinthians it says in verse 53, "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." Then it goes on to say in verse 57, "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus died and rose again to overcome our sin so that those who believe in him will have everlasting life.
[/QUOTE]
I take exception to your impression of the OT. Genesis is not meant to be taken literal. The story of creation was not meant as the actual steps take but more in line withthe world was created by the hand of God...and Adam & Eve are not merely two individuals but the start of humanity. Likewise, the flood was the flood of the world as it was known at the time and not the entire planet. There is historical evidence of such a flood.
One should use the understanding of the world as a companion to Biblical text.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed one should use an understanding of the world in grasping the meaning of the Bible but when the meaning of the Word is compromised in the process then it simply isn't true. There is also evidence of a global flood just as there is evidence of a local flood as you mention. From studies of geology to stories about a global flood that come from across the entire world. Every human died. Every animal died. Every living thing died. Except those that were on the ark.
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:32 am GMT
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The Atheism Union: Reasonable, logical discussion of the unreasonable and illogical
"The unexamined life is not worth living"-Socrates
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The OT is not meant to be a literal translation of the science at work.
Reading your passage...I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion.
[/QUOTE]
Really? I put the important in bold letters so people would understand where I got the idea from. The passage I quoted which describes how the dead are resurrected says that a dead body is raised a spiritual body. Now I could very well be wrong because I am not a bible expert but to me that suggests that Jesus' resurrection was not physical in nature. He didn't actually get up and walk around but was revived in spirit.
This goes on to imply that the 500 witnesses (mentioned earlier in I Cor 15) didn't actually see Jesus after he revived. It implies that Jesus' great resurrection was composed only of the spiritual impact his crucifixion had on others. This is all speculation of course which is why I'm asking the OT experts.
[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Some parts of the Bible are meant to be literal and other parts not depending upon the literary genre of the part written. The books of Genesis, Exodus, Levicus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are called the Torah. They are books about the history of the Covenant that God has for his people leading up to the time of Moses. They are literal in every way. Books like the Gospels which include Jesus' birth and Resurrection are to be treated as literal because of their literary genre as well. There are sayings however that are spoken within those books, however, that are not to be treated as literal. Just as we may use unliteral sarcasm or imagery to get our points across, so does Jesus and the writers of the Gospels. You mentioned context, it's good to see that you at least are aware that context is indeed important. Nothing has meaning without it. According the context of the Bible itself and it's literary genres, it does say that Jesus literally died and rose from the dead.
Later on in that same chapter within 1 Corinthians it says in verse 53, "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." Then it goes on to say in verse 57, "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus died and rose again to overcome our sin so that those who believe in him will have everlasting life.
[/QUOTE]
But what if the imperishable and immortal body of the ressurected Christ is just refering to his spirit or soul. Doesn't the bible tell us that the spirit is the immortal and imperishable component of the body? Can you provide any passages that portray Jesus as literally resurrected?
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:42 am GMTdomatron23 wrote:
Really? I put the important in bold letters so people would understand where I got the idea from. The passage I quoted which describes how the dead are resurrected says that a dead body is raised a spiritual body. Now I could very well be wrong because I am not a bible expert but to me that suggests that Jesus' resurrection was not physical in nature. He didn't actually get up and walk around but was revived in spirit.
This goes on to imply that the 500 witnesses (mentioned earlier in I Cor 15) didn't actually see Jesus after he revived. It implies that Jesus' great resurrection was composed only of the spiritual impact his crucifixion had on others. This is all speculation of course which is why I'm asking the OT experts.
Your passage had nothing to do with Jesus. It was an answer about mankind. In addition, Jesus was God. He is not bound by limits on man. Nonetheless, the passage you quoted was talking about the differences between life and the afterlife and man and animals.
As for the bolded text that simply means there is two parts to a body...the natural body and the spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a natural one. You didn't finished the quote.
Basically...the soul. Nonetheless, Paul was not describing Jesus' resurrection as merely a spiritual one.
[QUOTE="domatron23"]Really? I put the important in bold letters so people would understand where I got the idea from. The passage I quoted which describes how the dead are resurrected says that a dead body is raised a spiritual body. Now I could very well be wrong because I am not a bible expert but to me that suggests that Jesus' resurrection was not physical in nature. He didn't actually get up and walk around but was revived in spirit.
This goes on to imply that the 500 witnesses (mentioned earlier in I Cor 15) didn't actually see Jesus after he revived. It implies that Jesus' great resurrection was composed only of the spiritual impact his crucifixion had on others. This is all speculation of course which is why I'm asking the OT experts.
[/QUOTE]
Your passage had nothing to do with Jesus. It was an answer about mankind. In addition, Jesus was God. He is not bound by limits on man. Nonetheless, the passage you quoted was talking about the differences between life and the afterlife and man and animals.
As for the bolded text that simply means there is two parts to a body...the natural body and the spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a natural one. You didn't finished the quote.;)
Basically...the soul. Nonetheless, Paul was not describing Jesus' resurrection as merely a spiritual one.
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:45 am GMT
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate[QUOTE="mindstorm"]There is also evidence of a global flood just as there is evidence of a local flood as you mention. From studies of geology to stories about a global flood that come from across the entire world. Every human died. Every animal died. Every living thing died. Except those that were on the ark.
[/QUOTE]
Could you lead me to this "evidence" of a global flood please?
Are the geological studies impartial?
And what about the fish?
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- Jan 10, 2008 4:54 am GMTChristians actually believe that jesus rose from the dead physically because of some ancient rumors that this guy's body couldn't be found after his death. But even according the Christian author Lee Strobel, there are 4 seperate accounts of this finding. Needless to say, there are many simple reasons why these reports could have been made. Going to the wrong location, animals eating the dead body and dragging it away, outright lying to further the myth of Jesus being a magical man, etc.
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- Jan 10, 2008 5:00 am GMT
there are a fair amount of biblical literalist that share this line of reasoning, that if you are allowed to pick and choose what should be taken literally and what shouldn't, than you have no basis for believing any part of the bible as a literal story...- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Jan 10, 2008 5:00 am GMTLJS9502_basic wrote:domatron23 wrote:
Really? I put the important in bold letters so people would understand where I got the idea from. The passage I quoted which describes how the dead are resurrected says that a dead body is raised a spiritual body. Now I could very well be wrong because I am not a bible expert but to me that suggests that Jesus' resurrection was not physical in nature. He didn't actually get up and walk around but was revived in spirit.
This goes on to imply that the 500 witnesses (mentioned earlier in I Cor 15) didn't actually see Jesus after he revived. It implies that Jesus' great resurrection was composed only of the spiritual impact his crucifixion had on others. This is all speculation of course which is why I'm asking the OT experts.
Your passage had nothing to do with Jesus. It was an answer about mankind. In addition, Jesus was God. He is not bound by limits on man. Nonetheless, the passage you quoted was talking about the differences between life and the afterlife and man and animals.
As for the bolded text that simply means there is two parts to a body...the natural body and the spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. You didn't finished the quote.
Basically...the soul. Nonetheless, Paul was not describing Jesus' resurrection as merely a spiritual one.
I see, it never really occured to me that they just could have been talking about normal people. The thing is it comes just after the passage about Jesus' ressurection and it didn't really make it clear that it was talking about men. Oh well it was probably a little ambitious to point out a phrase (apparrently unnoticed by biblical scholars for over a thousand years) that contradicted the accepted view of christs resurrection.
Biblical evidence aside I still think that a spiritual, non physicalinterpretation of the ressurection is the most likely explanation for this event.
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The Atheism Union: Reasonable, logical discussion of the unreasonable and illogical
"The unexamined life is not worth living"-Socrates
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="domatron23"]Really? I put the important in bold letters so people would understand where I got the idea from. The passage I quoted which describes how the dead are resurrected says that a dead body is raised a spiritual body. Now I could very well be wrong because I am not a bible expert but to me that suggests that Jesus' resurrection was not physical in nature. He didn't actually get up and walk around but was revived in spirit.
This goes on to imply that the 500 witnesses (mentioned earlier in I Cor 15) didn't actually see Jesus after he revived. It implies that Jesus' great resurrection was composed only of the spiritual impact his crucifixion had on others. This is all speculation of course which is why I'm asking the OT experts.
[/QUOTE]
Your passage had nothing to do with Jesus. It was an answer about mankind. In addition, Jesus was God. He is not bound by limits on man. Nonetheless, the passage you quoted was talking about the differences between life and the afterlife and man and animals.
As for the bolded text that simply means there is two parts to a body...the natural body and the spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. You didn't finished the quote.;)
Basically...the soul. Nonetheless, Paul was not describing Jesus' resurrection as merely a spiritual one.
[/QUOTE]
I see, it never really occured to me that they just could have been talking about normal people. The thing is it comes just after the passage about Jesus' ressurection and it didn't really make it clear that it was talking about men. Oh well it was probably a little ambitious to point out a phrase (apparrently unnoticed by biblical scholars for over a thousand years) that contradicted the accepted view of christs resurrection.
Biblical evidence aside I still think that a spiritual, non physicalinterpretation of the ressurection is the most likely explanation for this event.
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- Jan 10, 2008 5:20 am GMT
[QUOTE="PrimordialMeme"]Christians actually believe that jesus rose from the dead physically because of some ancient rumors that this guy's body couldn't be found after his death. But even according the Christian author Lee Strobel, there are 4 seperate accounts of this finding. Needless to say, there are many simple reasons why these reports could have been made. Going to the wrong location, animals eating the dead body and dragging it away, outright lying to further the myth of Jesus being a magical man, etc.[/QUOTE]
One...they knew where the tomb was and who's it was. The mistake would have been discovered shortly.
Two....animals can't move a rock that is blocking the entrance.
Three...after His death there is no reasons to perpretrate a lie that causes one death.
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- Jan 10, 2008 5:21 am GMTThe part about the physical ressurrection is mythology. It became important b/c it was used at the time to convince people about the divinity of this guy, who in reality was just a radical jewish cult leader who was killed by authorities.
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- Jan 10, 2008 5:22 am GMT
[QUOTE="PrimordialMeme"]The part about the physical ressurrection is mythology. It became important b/c it was used at the time to convince people about the divinity of this guy, who in reality was just a radical jewish cult leader who was killed by authorities.[/QUOTE]
Your proof?
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- Jan 10, 2008 5:25 am GMT[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="PrimordialMeme"]Christians actually believe that jesus rose from the dead physically because of some ancient rumors that this guy's body couldn't be found after his death. But even according the Christian author Lee Strobel, there are 4 seperate accounts of this finding. Needless to say, there are many simple reasons why these reports could have been made. Going to the wrong location, animals eating the dead body and dragging it away, outright lying to further the myth of Jesus being a magical man, etc.[/QUOTE]
One...they knew where the tomb was and who's it was. The mistake would have been discovered shortly.
Two....animals can't move a rock that is blocking the entrance.
Three...after His death there is no reasons to perpretrate a lie that causes one death.
[/QUOTE]
1. You don't know that.
2. Animals can live in caves, which often have many entrances and can be quite vast.
3. Yes there is, if you are one of his followers and dont want to dissapoint the flock. "Hey guess what guys, jesus didn't rise afterall."
You know if it was real, he could have just risen right off the cross. Instead they had to dump a corpse which later couldn't be located. Thats not proof of anything.
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- Jan 10, 2008 5:30 am GMTPrimordialMeme wrote:
1. You don't know that.
2. Animals can live in caves, which often have many entrances and can be quite vast.
3. Yes there is, if you are one of his followers and dont want to dissapoint the flock. "Hey guess what guys, jesus didn't rise afterall."
You know if it was real, he could have just risen right off the cross. Instead they had to dump a corpse which later couldn't be located. Thats not proof of anything.
1. They watched as He was buried. They knew who owned the tomb. So yeah...they did.
2. You don't know anything about the tomb. Just your opinion. But for the sake of argument...animals devour food as they find it. And they don't undress a body if they did want to drag it out.
3. No. Survival is man's first instinct. They had to have believed what they preached or they would not have willingly died a painful death for it. That defies logic.
Have you read any of the prophecies? Because you won't make that last statement had you done so. He came to fulfill those prophecies.
[QUOTE="PrimordialMeme"]1. You don't know that.
2. Animals can live in caves, which often have many entrances and can be quite vast.
3. Yes there is, if you are one of his followers and dont want to dissapoint the flock. "Hey guess what guys, jesus didn't rise afterall."
You know if it was real, he could have just risen right off the cross. Instead they had to dump a corpse which later couldn't be located. Thats not proof of anything.
[/QUOTE]
1. They watched as He was buried. They knew who owned the tomb. So yeah...they did.
2. You don't know anything about the tomb. Just your opinion. But for the sake of argument...animals devour food as they find it. And they don't undress a body if they did want to drag it out.
3. No. Survival is man's first instinct. They had to have believed what they preached or they would not have willingly died a painful death for it. That defies logic.
Have you read any of the prophecies? Because you won't make that last statement had you done so. He came to fulfill those prophecies.:|
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