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'Dead or Alive fans demanded larger breasts' says DoA5 director
- Oct 6, 2012 7:35 am GMT[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]
[QUOTE="skrat_01"]The game baths in its soft-porn image, and that's one of the major reasons DOA even has notoriety. Fair enough the audience would want more of it. It's silly pandering, but this this an audience the developers is directly catering for anyway. [QUOTE="capaho"]
There isn't much of intellectual or social significance to waste time on.
[/QUOTE] Considering it's (all the sex, animie, manga, hentai, games, fetishes) are a very identifiable part of a modern Japanese sub culture, there's been plenty of cultural commentary and papers written about it.[/QUOTE]
By bathing in its soft-porn image, do you mean it has females dressed in outfits not dissimilar from other games in the genre?
Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.
Now to be completely fair DOA has a storied history, including those embarrassing volley ball asides, but the actual fighting games, especially this latest entry, are no more gratuitous in their depiction of sexualized women than any other fighter.
Or any other number of games for that matter.
[/QUOTE] Sure, many games do, I'm certainly not excluding those games (though I'd say Tekken and SF don't necessarily stray into this territory) Soul Calibur especially is as much about hypersexualization as DOA; the difference being DOA is a franchise that stemmed into the 'Extreme Beach Volley Ball' territory, which outright is minigames and video-game soft porn - as you mentioned. DOA certainly isn't the rule when it comes to video game soft porn, that's for sure. The fighting genre isn't exclusive to this either. What I like about the DOA series is that it's outright honest about its intentions, and isn't trying to masquerade as something that it isn't, same with Soul Cailbur. Other games like Bayonetta fall into that category too; though that's all very much part of its outrageous camp humour.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 7:44 am GMT
[QUOTE="skrat_01"] Sure, many games do, I'm certainly not excluding those games (though I'd say Tekken and SF don't necessarily stray into this territory) Soul Calibur especially is as much about hypersexualization as DOA; the difference being DOA is a franchise that stemmed into the 'Extreme Beach Volley Ball' territory, which outright is minigames and video-game soft porn - as you mentioned. DOA certainly isn't the rule when it comes to video game soft porn, that's for sure. The fighting genre isn't exclusive to this either. What I like about the DOA series is that it's outright honest about its intentions, and isn't trying to masquerade as something that it isn't, same with Soul Cailbur. Other games like Bayonetta fall into that category too; though that's all very much part of its outrageous camp humour. [/QUOTE]
What's interesting about DOA5 is that I think they were more concerned with making a legitimate fighter than facilitating fetishistic fantasies.
The mistake was taking the criticisms about the breasts seriously and worse, publically admitting they did so.
DOA5 is a fantastic game and frankly it doesn't require this type of superficial content.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 7:55 am GMT
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]
You literally come off like a person who doesn't even fully grasp what they've written with their own hand.
That isn't an insult but a glaringly obvious observation.
To state that you haven't been arguing is lunacy; you might as well have claimed to not have drawn oxygen into your lungs during the last 24 hours.
As a point of fact you have been arguing incessantly and very selectively. You imbue your words with hostility and derision, then claim innocence when called out for these behaviors.
As Meta stated, you try and string together a copious amount of intellectual-sounding sentences but your arguments falter when you are pressed to defend them. You are a classic passive-aggressive whether you care to admit it or not and you have a nasty habit of blaming others when your logic fails.
And no, we don't need to lighten up. It's all you, every time.
You are one of the people who decided to slander an entire culture based on a VIDEOGAME. You are the one who pushed the notion that my playing the game suggested I lack empathy for those people who do not enjoy a full measure of equity. You are the one who tossed around cheap armchair psychobabble even while dodging the many specific points I made in my rebuttals.
It's not us. It's you.
[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify the situation, are you a high school student?
As for my comments on Japanese culture, they are not based on a videogame. I lived there for 15 years.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 8:22 am GMT
My gaming blog and a different kind of videogame review. "No, no, no. Amateur! Lie down before you hurt yourself..." -- Timon
El ZoRRo vs Omega Prime! Witness the epic battle yourself! Who was right? Lord only knows(well, Him and anyone who finished the ninth grade...)[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]
You literally come off like a person who doesn't even fully grasp what they've written with their own hand.
That isn't an insult but a glaringly obvious observation.
To state that you haven't been arguing is lunacy; you might as well have claimed to not have drawn oxygen into your lungs during the last 24 hours.
As a point of fact you have been arguing incessantly and very selectively. You imbue your words with hostility and derision, then claim innocence when called out for these behaviors.
As Meta stated, you try and string together a copious amount of intellectual-sounding sentences but your arguments falter when you are pressed to defend them. You are a classic passive-aggressive whether you care to admit it or not and you have a nasty habit of blaming others when your logic fails.
And no, we don't need to lighten up. It's all you, every time.
You are one of the people who decided to slander an entire culture based on a VIDEOGAME. You are the one who pushed the notion that my playing the game suggested I lack empathy for those people who do not enjoy a full measure of equity. You are the one who tossed around cheap armchair psychobabble even while dodging the many specific points I made in my rebuttals.
It's not us. It's you.
[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify the situation, are you a high school student?
As for my comments on Japanese culture, they are not based on a videogame. I lived there for 15 years.
[/QUOTE] From what ages?- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 9:15 am GMT
Can't remember the title of a game? Ask us in the Game Remembrance Thread
Over 200 resolved queries[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.[/QUOTE] I agree on the games you mentioned, except one: aside from Cammy's swimsuit I can't think of a single sexualized character in Street Fighter. Would you please make some examples?[/QUOTE]
Chun Lis classic outfit is pretty skimpy, especially as it pertains to length.
Juris outfit is also very revealing and Sakura is basically prototypical Japanese School Girl Fetish fodder.
Elena from SFIII is sexualized as well.
[/QUOTE] Close enough I guess, but none of them scream sex the way a Kasumi, a Chrissie, a Sophitia or a Mai Shiranui does. I agree that the line is a blurry one, but I feel I could safely say that Street Fighter characters are more "beautiful" than sexually charged. At the very least when compared to the other games mentioned, SF is the smallest "offender"- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 9:16 am GMT
-MM
Former Gamespot Moderator
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] I agree on the games you mentioned, except one: aside from Cammy's swimsuit I can't think of a single sexualized character in Street Fighter. Would you please make some examples?[/QUOTE]
Chun Lis classic outfit is pretty skimpy, especially as it pertains to length.
Juris outfit is also very revealing and Sakura is basically prototypical Japanese School Girl Fetish fodder.
Elena from SFIII is sexualized as well.
[/QUOTE] Close enough I guess, but none of them scream sex the way a Kasumi, a Chrissie, a Sophitia or a Mai Shiranui does. I agree that the line is a blurry one, but I feel I could safely say that Street Fighter characters are more "beautiful" than sexually charged. At the very least when compared to the other games mentioned, SF is the smallest "offender"[/QUOTE]
I can't think of a fighter that had the most cleanest image when it comes to females in fighting game. Perhaps something in the older days?
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 9:22 am GMT
-MM
Former Gamespot Moderator[QUOTE="capaho"]
[QUOTE="Metamania"]
Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.
[/QUOTE]
I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.
I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.
Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.
[/QUOTE]
My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.
The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.
And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 10:35 am GMT
My gaming blog and a different kind of videogame review. "No, no, no. Amateur! Lie down before you hurt yourself..." -- Timon
El ZoRRo vs Omega Prime! Witness the epic battle yourself! Who was right? Lord only knows(well, Him and anyone who finished the ninth grade...)[QUOTE="Metamania"][QUOTE="capaho"]
[QUOTE="Metamania"]
Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.
[/QUOTE]
I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.
I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.
Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.
[/QUOTE]
My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.
The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.
And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.
[/QUOTE] I don't think it has as much to do with his point not coming across as it does his unwillingness to defend his points. In both this thread and the infamous Sleeping Dogs thread, every time someone picks his points apart, he responds to the least important, but potentially most defensible points in the rebuttal. He isn't concerned with defending his position as much he is concerned with "winning" each exchange. But what really gets me is how he backtracks and attempts to revise his positions, and when it's brought to his attention, he stil denies, denies, denies. I like to think that if I got caught reversing my position because of a thoughtless post and then had it shown to me exactly how, that I would at least cop to my mistake.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 10:59 am GMT
-MM
Former Gamespot Moderator[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"][QUOTE="Metamania"]
[QUOTE="capaho"]
I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.
I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.
Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.
[/QUOTE]
My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.
The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.
And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.
[/QUOTE] I don't think it has as much to do with his point not coming across as it does his unwillingness to defend his points. In both this thread and the infamous Sleeping Dogs thread, every time someone picks his points apart, he responds to the least important, but potentially most defensible points in the rebuttal. He isn't concerned with defending his position as much he is concerned with "winning" each exchange. But what really gets me is how he backtracks and attempts to revise his positions, and when it's brought to his attention, he stil denies, denies, denies. I like to think that if I got caught reversing my position because of a thoughtless post and then had it shown to me exactly how, that I would at least cop to my mistake.[/QUOTE]
That'e exactly my point; the argument that he attempts to make doesn't do well for him and when all else fails, he denies and accuses us.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 6:33 pm GMT
lol capaho vs GGD part 2.
The Blah Blah Blah post might be grounds for a suspension if i were to report it. But i see the PGD regulars here are going to ruin his next few days so I'll stand down.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 6:46 pm GMT
My gaming blog and a different kind of videogame review. "No, no, no. Amateur! Lie down before you hurt yourself..." -- Timon
El ZoRRo vs Omega Prime! Witness the epic battle yourself! Who was right? Lord only knows(well, Him and anyone who finished the ninth grade...)[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]lol capaho vs GGD part 2.
The Blah Blah Blah post might be grounds for a suspension if i were to report it. But i see the PGD regulars here are going to ruin his next few days so I'll stand down.
[/QUOTE] When the quotes I'm using are way long and seen just a post or two up, I'll change them to "blahblahblah" and "yakyakyak" to save space. Is this verboten?- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 7:31 pm GMT
[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]When the quotes I'm using are way long and seen just a post or two up, I'll change them to "blahblahblah" and "yakyakyak" to save space. Is this verboten? [/QUOTE]
Maybe in the old days, but now? Nah.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 7:39 pm GMT
Can't remember the title of a game? Ask us in the Game Remembrance Thread
Over 200 resolved queries[QUOTE="c_rake"]
[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]When the quotes I'm using are way long and seen just a post or two up, I'll change them to "blahblahblah" and "yakyakyak" to save space. Is this verboten? [/QUOTE]
Maybe in the old days, but now? Nah.
[/QUOTE] Don't you hate it when people type sh*t with an accented "ì" and you (being a mod) have to squint to see if they used a normal "i" or an accented one?
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 7:51 pm GMT
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Don't you hate it when people type sh*t with an accented "ì" and you (being a mod) have to squint to see if they used a normal "i" or an accented one?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's the worst. What's so hard about putting an asterisk in? I mean come on.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 8:26 pm GMT
[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"][QUOTE="capaho"]
Just to clarify the situation, are you a high school student?
As for my comments on Japanese culture, they are not based on a videogame. I lived there for 15 years.
[/QUOTE] From what ages?[/QUOTE]
The specific age range doesn't matter. I ask because he comes across to me as an insecure high school student. He reacts to my comments in a manner that is not indicative of a confident, mature adult. The last thing I want to do is antagonize a high school student in a forum like this.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 8:35 pm GMT
[QUOTE="capaho"]The specific age range doesn't matter. I ask because he comes across to me as an insecure high school student. He reacts to my comments in a manner that is not indicative of a confident, mature adult. The last thing I want to do is antagonize a high school student in a forum like this.[/QUOTE]
Uh huh.
And you know what a confident, mature adult looks like, do you?
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 8:36 pm GMTc_rake wrote:Black_Knight_00 wrote:Don't you hate it when people type sh*t with an accented "ì" and you (being a mod) have to squint to see if they used a normal "i" or an accented one?
Yeah, it's the worst. What's so hard about putting an asterisk in? I mean come on.
I don't envy you. I'd just mod them anyway
Then again, I'm a bad, bad person.
Can't remember the title of a game? Ask us in the Game Remembrance Thread
Over 200 resolved queries[QUOTE="c_rake"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Don't you hate it when people type sh*t with an accented "ì" and you (being a mod) have to squint to see if they used a normal "i" or an accented one?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's the worst. What's so hard about putting an asterisk in? I mean come on.
[/QUOTE] I don't envy you. I'd just mod them anyway :P Then again, I'm a bad, bad person.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 8:44 pm GMT
[QUOTE="Metamania"]
My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.
The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.
And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you have somewhat of the same problem that you say I do. You don't always come across the way that you think you do. I accept that you were honest and sincere in the Sleeping Dogs discussion, as was I, but your tone lacked civility at times.
My problem, as I see it, is that I'm not trying to do anything other than express my own viewpoint in my usual style. The judgements I make about games are entirely subjective. I think the confusion over style and context comes from the fact that others are looking for or otherwise expecting an argument or a debate where I am not. That is precisely why I generally don't respond to the points others make in an effort to dispute what I've said. I think it's pointless to debate subjective evaluations of games. Being able to discuss differences of opinion without personalizing them is what distinguishes civil discourse from argument or acrimony.
As I have stated several times already, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but I realize my wry style can be easily misinterpreted by some. Beyond that, insult is a reactive emotion, it comes from within. There is nothing in a discussion like this that is worth attempting to insult others over or feeling insulted about.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 8:45 pm GMT
[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]
lol capaho vs GGD part 2.
The Blah Blah Blah post might be grounds for a suspension if i were to report it. But i see the PGD regulars here are going to ruin his next few days so I'll stand down.
[/QUOTE]
The Blah Blah Blah post was merely an attempt at humor.
- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Oct 6, 2012 9:10 pm GMT
My gaming blog and a different kind of videogame review. "No, no, no. Amateur! Lie down before you hurt yourself..." -- Timon
El ZoRRo vs Omega Prime! Witness the epic battle yourself! Who was right? Lord only knows(well, Him and anyone who finished the ninth grade...)[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"][QUOTE="capaho"]
Just to clarify the situation, are you a high school student?
As for my comments on Japanese culture, they are not based on a videogame. I lived there for 15 years.
[/QUOTE] From what ages?[/QUOTE]
The specific age range doesn't matter. I ask because he comes across to me as an insecure high school student. He reacts to my comments in a manner that is not indicative of a confident, mature adult. The last thing I want to do is antagonize a high school student in a forum like this.
[/QUOTE] It matters very much. If you were raised in Japan from ages 0-15 then you were likely not studying social norms too closely.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
