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Kyrie Irving is just nasty

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_Floater_

Feb 7, 2013 11:52 am GMT
Stock is an all-time great point guard... just not on the level of Paul or Magic.

And I don't have anything to back it up other than decades of experience of watching the NBA. I'm not looking for credibility or confirmation from you guys. Really, the only way to accurately judge players is from watching extensive film.

You don't judge the quality of a players performance on box-score statistics. If a player makes an incredible pass to get a teammate a great shot, and the teammate misses, it won't count as an assist. If Jeremy Lin hands the ball off to James Harden who shoots a contested three and makes it, Jeremy Lin gets an assist. Which of these is the better play by the point guard?

There is absolutely NO argument that can be made for Stock over Magic. None. Anyone that thinks otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

Rings and assists per game don't decide who's actually better. There is no argument for Rajon Rondo being better than Chris Paul
ZechsPeacecraft

Feb 7, 2013 12:43 pm GMT
I so strongly disagree with you, but if you're not gonna bring anything to the table other than your proclamations there isn't much to interact with you on.

I'm just gonna leave it at that
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
DuceDestiny

Feb 7, 2013 12:46 pm GMT
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
@ Duce, you forgot Jrue Holiday as being better than Deron. That guy has been superb this year

Sorry I did forget about him. Can you please explain to me what is in the water at UCLA?

_Floater_ posted...
And I don't have anything to back it up other than decades of experience of watching the NBA.

While the other things you are saying have some basis, this statement does not. Empirical evidence is nice, but is not and should never be the only judge of how good a player is.

You underestimate the power of statistics. Advanced stats actually can track the types of shots a player generates, be it uncontested layups or heavily guarded 3s. It supports the theory that Conley does not generate offense for his team except in transition and secondary breaks. Advanced stats can track things like point production based on floor positioning, defensive contributions to negative offensive values, and even funny stuff like how often Kobe shoots the ball on 3 days rest.

The thing you are missing that ZechsPeacecraft tried to point out is you are ignoring a mountain of evidence. There is no perfect stat and one piece of evidence won't give you the complete answer, but ignoring it wont get you any closer either.

Nobody is saying that Rondo is better than CP3, and the stats support the fact that CP3 is far better than Rondo.
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If you like big men, it would be Wilt Chamberlain. Or if you're racist you're gonna pick Larry Bird - Horry
_Floater_

Feb 7, 2013 2:03 pm GMT
I don't simply ignore statistics; I just hate when people use them as the end-all be-all.
DuceDestiny

Feb 7, 2013 2:22 pm GMT
_Floater_ posted...
I'm anti-statistic.

That would seem to be contradictory to this statement you said about a page back.
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If you like big men, it would be Wilt Chamberlain. Or if you're racist you're gonna pick Larry Bird - Horry
_Floater_

Feb 7, 2013 2:24 pm GMT
DuceDestiny posted...
_Floater_ posted...
I'm anti-statistic.

That would seem to be contradictory to this statement you said about a page back.

I am anti-statistic... but I understand their purposes...

It's only contradictory if you don't understand it.
ZechsPeacecraft

Feb 7, 2013 3:23 pm GMT
_Floater_ posted...
DuceDestiny posted...
_Floater_ posted...
I'm anti-statistic.

That would seem to be contradictory to this statement you said about a page back.

I am anti-statistic... but I understand their purposes...

It's only contradictory if you don't understand it.

so then you're not anti-statistic?

anti-statistics literally translates to being against statistics; if you really understood them then you would be using them. And since you haven't really listed any stats how can you say you understand their purpose? There hasn't been any great player who didn't have stats behind them proving how good they were. You claim to think like professional analysts but any good analyst knows that statistics are a huge part of determining how good a player is. It's not the end all be all, nobody is saying that. But they have to be far more considered then you have been considering them.

It's how people know that Michael was light years ahead of Kobe. They both make incredible plays on a daily basis, but the stats show Michael was transcendent when compared to Kobe's stats.

@ Duce, idk man but someone ought to be checking for HGH's or something. How could people honestly choose Kentucky over UCLA anyways (used to go to UK)???
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
_Floater_

Feb 7, 2013 3:25 pm GMT
You guys seriously love arguing semantics, don't you?

I guess you could say I'm anti-misuse of statistics (which is what the majority of the population does when utilizing these tools)
ZechsPeacecraft

Feb 7, 2013 3:26 pm GMT
_Floater_ posted...
You guys seriously love arguing semantics, don't you?

I guess you could say I'm anti-misuse of statistics (which is what the majority of the population does when utilizing these tools)

ironic since you're misusing statistics
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
_Floater_

Feb 7, 2013 3:34 pm GMT
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
_Floater_ posted...
You guys seriously love arguing semantics, don't you?

I guess you could say I'm anti-misuse of statistics (which is what the majority of the population does when utilizing these tools)

ironic since you're misusing statistics

I haven't even used a single statistic in this thread, have I?
nighthawk247

Feb 7, 2013 3:51 pm GMT
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
_Floater_ posted...
You guys seriously love arguing semantics, don't you?

I guess you could say I'm anti-misuse of statistics (which is what the majority of the population does when utilizing these tools)

ironic since you're misusing statistics

How can one misuse something without using the thing in the first place?
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My rule in life is simple, Power is only for ones who can control it. I'm a leader! http://www.scribd.com/doc/114319899/Untitled
whodeynotdat

Feb 7, 2013 3:57 pm GMT
I'm the complete opposite of floater. Stats tell a good majority of the story IMO. PER is my favorite stat is it blends all of the stats together. It's proof of legitimacy is that lebron had an amazing season last year and his per was one of the highest ever. PER really doesn't translate the defensive side but that's where the eye test is usually the bet judgement. I think stats are good judger overall because a player isn't going to average 10 assists per game over a career by having teammates hit lucky shots. There's an obvious need for skill in that scenario.
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Michael Jackson was the king of pop. It's time to crown eminem the king of rap.
_Floater_

Feb 7, 2013 4:02 pm GMT
The problem with PER is it only accounts for box-score contributions, whereas the majority of the game takes place outside out of the box-score.
ZechsPeacecraft

Feb 7, 2013 4:52 pm GMT
nighthawk247 posted...
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
_Floater_ posted...
You guys seriously love arguing semantics, don't you?

I guess you could say I'm anti-misuse of statistics (which is what the majority of the population does when utilizing these tools)

ironic since you're misusing statistics

How can one misuse something without using the thing in the first place?

He's misusing stats by not using them at all. (talk about arguing over semantics) Misuse by omission for someone who understands them.

And Kyrie is in the three point contest! Big year so far for him, hope he wins. Steph is in though so it'll be tough for anyone without Curry as their last name to win.

Can't believe they picked Lillard over Kyrie in the rising star challenge. Kyrie bias aside, Team Shaq is gonna destroy Team Chuck
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
nighthawk247

Feb 7, 2013 5:00 pm GMT
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
nighthawk247 posted...
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
_Floater_ posted...
You guys seriously love arguing semantics, don't you?

I guess you could say I'm anti-misuse of statistics (which is what the majority of the population does when utilizing these tools)

ironic since you're misusing statistics

How can one misuse something without using the thing in the first place?

He's misusing stats by not using them at all. (talk about arguing over semantics) Misuse by omission for someone who understands them.

And Kyrie is in the three point contest! Big year so far for him, hope he wins. Steph is in though so it'll be tough for anyone without Curry as their last name to win.

Can't believe they picked Lillard over Kyrie in the rising star challenge. Kyrie bias aside, Team Shaq is gonna destroy Team Chuck

That, is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If he's misusing stats by not using them, that's like saying dumb people are smart but they don't use they're brain..
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My rule in life is simple, Power is only for ones who can control it. I'm a leader! http://www.scribd.com/doc/114319899/Untitled
DuceDestiny

Feb 7, 2013 5:16 pm GMT
Floater, you love to say "semantics" but you are using the word incorrectly. You said before that you were "anti-statistics" which means you are completely against their use in every situation. If at any point you say that you see them as being useful you have contradicted yourself. That is not semantics as there is no word with multiple meanings to be interpreted different ways.

Do you think statistics are useful in evaluating anything?

_Floater_ posted...
The problem with PER is it only accounts for box-score contributions, whereas the majority of the game takes place outside out of the box-score.

Actually, the majority of things that happen which have a positive and negative effect on actually scoring are recorded in the box score. PER only has two major flaws. The first is that it does not take defense which does not produce blocks and steals into account. However by looking at "PER against" that problem is fixed for the most part. Secondly PER does not take into account secondary offensive movements, such as ball movement and screens. This problem is not easily fixed but can be accounted for by looking at the PER of a lineup of players vs similar lineups. PER, EWA, OWS, EWS, eFG, TRB%, and every other stat are designed to measure specific things and they are amazing at measuring those things, ignoring that data is foolish.

The majority of basketball is simple, put the ball in the basket and stop the other team from doing so.
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If you like big men, it would be Wilt Chamberlain. Or if you're racist you're gonna pick Larry Bird - Horry
ZechsPeacecraft

Feb 7, 2013 5:53 pm GMT
nighthawk247 posted...
That, is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If he's misusing stats by not using them, that's like saying dumb people are smart but they don't use they're brain..

I doubt that is the dumbest thing you've ever heard, but you're response is definitely up there with the most outrageous over reactions I've ever experienced; especially considering it was over NOTHING. If that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard of go do something more productive with you're time; for humanity sake instead of wasting all of your precious time on us idiots.

And anyone can be a genius, you have to work at it, just ask Albert Einstein and all the other genius' who said they weren't anything special but people who applied themselves (so for you, that means that anybody can be very smart). I suggest you try using your brain because I know you're smarter than this. Call it whatever you want but the point remains, and the point that I know was understood, is that he isn't taking advantage of something that he should be, and he's chastising the people who are properly using it. Why am I even arguing with you it's pointless; how about you contribute instead of trying to make your self feel good by arguing over who used a word right. You're the smart one remember.
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
nighthawk247

Feb 7, 2013 6:38 pm GMT
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
nighthawk247 posted...
That, is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If he's misusing stats by not using them, that's like saying dumb people are smart but they don't use they're brain..

I doubt that is the dumbest thing you've ever heard, but you're response is definitely up there with the most outrageous over reactions I've ever experienced; especially considering it was over NOTHING. If that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard of go do something more productive with you're time; for humanity sake instead of wasting all of your precious time on us idiots.

And anyone can be a genius, you have to work at it, just ask Albert Einstein and all the other genius' who said they weren't anything special but people who applied themselves (so for you, that means that anybody can be very smart). I suggest you try using your brain because I know you're smarter than this. Call it whatever you want but the point remains, and the point that I know was understood, is that he isn't taking advantage of something that he should be, and he's chastising the people who are properly using it. Why am I even arguing with you it's pointless; how about you contribute instead of trying to make your self feel good by arguing over who used a word right. You're the smart one remember.

Firstly, way to be a jerk. Secondly, I never said I was a smart guy, though I do think I'm above average. Thirdly, I don't have many ways to be productive with my time, beyond school, job, and homework, I don't have much. Now, in all honesty, I think you both have a point. Stats are a big part of basketball, a guy who averages 30+ minutes and averages 1/1/1 is just a bad player, period. But there a some things you just can't quantify, and in all honesty, they're are some exaggerations on both sides here. And fourthly, I'm sorry for my rudeness, all is forgiven?
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My rule in life is simple, Power is only for ones who can control it. I'm a leader! http://www.scribd.com/doc/114319899/Untitled
ZechsPeacecraft

Feb 7, 2013 6:50 pm GMT
nighthawk247 posted...
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
nighthawk247 posted...
That, is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If he's misusing stats by not using them, that's like saying dumb people are smart but they don't use they're brain..

I doubt that is the dumbest thing you've ever heard, but you're response is definitely up there with the most outrageous over reactions I've ever experienced; especially considering it was over NOTHING. If that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard of go do something more productive with you're time; for humanity sake instead of wasting all of your precious time on us idiots.

And anyone can be a genius, you have to work at it, just ask Albert Einstein and all the other genius' who said they weren't anything special but people who applied themselves (so for you, that means that anybody can be very smart). I suggest you try using your brain because I know you're smarter than this. Call it whatever you want but the point remains, and the point that I know was understood, is that he isn't taking advantage of something that he should be, and he's chastising the people who are properly using it. Why am I even arguing with you it's pointless; how about you contribute instead of trying to make your self feel good by arguing over who used a word right. You're the smart one remember.

Firstly, way to be a jerk. Secondly, I never said I was a smart guy, though I do think I'm above average. Thirdly, I don't have many ways to be productive with my time, beyond school, job, and homework, I don't have much. Now, in all honesty, I think you both have a point. Stats are a big part of basketball, a guy who averages 30+ minutes and averages 1/1/1 is just a bad player, period. But there a some things you just can't quantify, and in all honesty, they're are some exaggerations on both sides here. And fourthly, I'm sorry for my rudeness, all is forgiven?

yeah we're good, we both over reacted a bit.

You have any thoughts on Kyrie and all-star weekend?
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
nighthawk247

Feb 7, 2013 7:00 pm GMT
As far as Kyrie Irving goes, I do think he COULD be top 50, he most certainly has the skill, and he does have the rigt state of mind, but he could suffer some kind of career-ending injury. And as far as the all star game goes, I stopped giving a s*** when Stephen Curry got snubbed, like, seriously, what up with that? I may be a timberwolves fan but I know BS when I see it.
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My rule in life is simple, Power is only for ones who can control it. I'm a leader! http://www.scribd.com/doc/114319899/Untitled