I didn't read through the comments, but for the ppl that are interested about how useful DRM is in stopping piracy I can give them an informed answer. DRM is not a problem for crackers. In fact the game is already up and cracked on torrents. Also something else. A few months ago i bought The Witcher 2 Assassins of kings which had DRM. The entire community and not only me had the game running very poorly on very good systems. After they deactivated DRM because of the many complains from the community the game works like a charm. Sum all i said above and you can easily reach the conclusion that: 1. DRM pointless to stop/delay piracy 2. DRM slows the game down drastically 3. DRM is an insult to the paying customers (ppl that download the game illegally play without DRM ! ) Sorry if my english is not perfect but i haven't slept in 30 hours.
Postapocalyptic shooter will discourage used game sales by curtailing single-player content; creative director Tim Willits calls himself a "big proponent" of always-online DRM.
Always-on digital rights management and online passes are two trends that sparked an abundance of gamer rage lately, but only one will actually find its way into the game Rage. In an interview with Eurogamer, creative director Tim Willits confirmed that the postapocalyptic shooter would lock out some content for people who bought the game used but wouldn't require a constant online connection.
Instead of taking the standard online pass approach of locking out the game's multiplayer modes unless a user enters a one-time code that comes with new copies or pays a $10 fee, Rage will rope off some single-player content. Diligent players will come across sewer hatches in the world of Rage that take them to new missions. If those players bought the game new (and bothered to download the associated content), those hatches will be open to them.
"[M]ost people never even see it," Willits said of the hatches. "I can tell you, some people will buy Rage, download that, and still never set foot in those things. They just won't. I think that's fair. It's cool. It's outside the main path. We're not detracting from anything. But I know some consumers, when you can't avoid it, then you get a little touchy subject."
As for DRM that requires a constant connection, the sort that was recently confirmed for Diablo III and championed by Ubisoft, Willits said that won't be used in Rage. However, he did call himself a "big proponent" of the idea and believes a game as eagerly anticipated as Diablo III will go a long way to making that approach acceptable for gamers.
"If you have a juggernaut, you can make change," Willits said. "I'm all for that. If we could force people to always be connected when you play the game and then have that be acceptable, awesome."
Willits acknowledged that some people would continue to resent the need to be online in order to enjoy a single-player game, but he said it would wind up being better for everyone involved. He cited automatic updates as a particular benefit to the scheme.
Rage is set to launch on the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and PC on October 4. For more on the game, check out GameSpot's previous coverage.
@ricopogimo My point was that any patch released for a game I would be required to download, whether it was really necessary or not, and being on Dial-up, it would take me forever to do so. If I'm going to be forced to download patches I'd just start using Steam again. Also, I believe I mean to say Blizzard and not Bethesda, since Blizzard is doing the always on internet for Diablo III.
GarGx1: Problem. Accept or Return EULAs are unenforceable in court. "In Perpetuity" licenses have been deemed the same as physical product, and may be traded as anything else.
@Yulaw2000 Unfortunately EULA's are anything but legally wothless, morally perhaps but certainly not legally. They are added to protect the intellectual properties and copy right of the software license you are purchasing. They retain all rights to that software and can discontinue your rights to use it as they see fit. 'Applying the ban hammer' is a term that's been used and heard of too many times. If you owned the software on the disc, cartrige or any other medium, they could never stop you from using it reguardless of what you chose to do with it. For the record I do actually agree with you, no need to change my opinion. I'm only stating simple facts.
CD keys have been around a lot longer than Steam. I'm pretty sure that I can dig around my PC games from the early/mid 90's and find that all those CD's have keys which will only allow one user online with that key at any given time. I've been in and around the software industry for a very long time and I very much do know what I'm talking about
@GarGx1 No, we are buying the game, not a license. The EULA's that come on games are legally and morally worthless, and the reason publishers aren't making as much profit (in general they are not loosing money) as they would like is because of bad money management and greed. And in any case, that doesn't give them they right to cut into our resale value. Before this new Single Player Pass scheme existed and the issue was Multi Player Pass, I made a blog post that's content and my responses to someone that had similar opinions to you may change your mind. If you would like, please take a look at it. http://uk.gamespot.com/users/Yulaw2000/?tag=userpanel%3Bprofile
@Yulaw2000 I'm actually more surprised that there is a second hand market at all. When you buy software, be that a game or an application, your not buying the software, your buying the license to use a copy of that software and that license is not usually transferable. This is the way the software market works and it's also why devs and publishers can get away with releasing unfinshed or broken software with no recourse from the consumer, as it will be patched at a later date and they own all rights to the software. Software devs and publishers are definately losing money to the second hand market. As every second hand sale is one less new sale, this is why they want to do as much damage to this market as they can. If they could wave a magic wand, they would make the entire concept disappear from human thinking. They don't want to re-sell games second, third or fourth hand etc.. They want to sell them once...new to one user (I don't support this idea but I do understand it) I didn't say second hand sales are the same as piracy but I can gaurantee you that the folks who make the money from the new sales and no money from the lost new sales (re-sales of previously sold games), view them in a similar manner.
@GarGx1 Also you are wrong to say that single use codes have been around for ever on PC. CD keys of the past could be used as many times as you wanted, on as many pc as you wanted (just not on more than one at the same time) weather you were the first time buyer or not. Single user CD keys started to be phased in around the time of steam, and even now some PC games do not use them.
@GarGx1 Don't believe the hype. Second hand games are neither new nor are they a problem, and publishers/developers have no right to make profit on the same copy of the same game more than one time. If they want less people to trade in their games, they just need to add replay value to them, so people don't feel used. And piracy is a different issue entirely.
PC games have had single user cd keys for ever, they're the main reason most pirated PC games can't be played online and piracy is the reason they're single shot. (Although most games can be re-installed as many times as you want) Now though publishers have a different problem, they're losing sales to the second hand console market. Actually they probably lose more sales to second hand than they do to piracy. Their answer is the tried and tested CD key. Id are just taking a slightly different angle on it by denying some single player content unless you give them some money. Basically it's way to make the new game more attractive than the second hand one sitting next to it for $5 less.
TBH I quite like this idea so long as ALL DLC for the game comes free with the online pass (pretty big caveat there). I buy most of my games new and resent paying extra to get content that should've been included from the start. Publishers don't get anything from the 2nd hand market so to have to pay the publishers for that additional content ain't that bad, particularly if it's not detracting from the core of the game.
@FarmFreshDX I've noticed that you did not realize what you stand for. Piracy has always been, and in the name of anti-piracy, they limits your rights. And will be worse.
Lovely...Rage has just made the list of games I "wont" be purchasing due to the greed-hungry tactics being shown....second hand game sales hurting your profit margin...how about a BIG NO SALE...that wont do you any good either...These companies forget who supported them in the first place, you and me and all the other gamers....now they blame us for falling profits....bahhhhh
If you have a "hacked system" or get your games illegally, which is a big problem right now, then dont be here complaining, most of these measures are to stop that, also diablo is taken very seriously on pc as far as pvp goes, always online virtually eliminates boting/hacks. I know ill get alot of thumbs down, but if a online connection means i get to play a game i enjoy without rampant hacks, im with it, i stopped playing call of duty because of that. I will say i DONT see the point in single player games, o wait other than the fact that they can see if you have a legit copy, so why take out content on single player? it doesn't serve the gamer who went out and bought an although used, LEGIT copy.
@ricopogimo Also you need to understand that even if you tern out to be right in saying what they are taking away is small, this sets a bad example for other company's to follow, if we don't make a stand now, it will get worse. More and more content will be removed until people are buying full priced games with no resale value, and not only is that unjust, but it will probably lead to another game industry collapse. Do you think as many people will buy full priced games if they have no option to trade them in if they feel they didn't get their moneys worth, or if they don't have the option to trade in ther old games to pay for the latest ones. Then there is all the young people that wont be able to afford to get into gaming and will be forced to choose a cheaper hobby. The same people that may have been future customers. This is self destructive greed that we must not support if we want to still have big budget games in the future.
@ricopogimo Please read some of the previous comments, and I think that you will agree that this doesn't just affect people that buy pre owned but also people that buy new as well.
@Trenchman. Then dont update! Your only at the mercy of games that comes out requiring immediate patches like 90% of Bethesda Developed games (RAGE is developed by ID for the record)
If I buy the game second hand would I???? 1. Get a chance to complete all achievments required by the game? YES! only mini contents are locked 2. Be able to complete the game? YES! only mini contents are locked 3. Would I have access to future DLC? YES! only mini contents are locked 4. Would I get to play mini contents? NO! I bought it second hand. 5. Did I really miss anything Great from Rage? NO! I still am glad I got an immersive experience playing even without the mini contents. Now Shut up Slackers. either you buy it new or not you still get to enjoy it. Nuff said. ID id a good company serving REAL gamers since 1990
It also doesn't work very well for people like myself who are stuck on dial-up because I live out in the middle of nowhere. Automatic update would just cause more problems. I'd really like to see a boycott of games that use the constant connection internet. If even a "juggernaut" such as Diablo 3 could not do so well because of it, maybe game companies would realize that it's a stupid idea, and maybe deflate Bethesda's big head a little at the same time.
So what if you have a download limit? Your game will be communicating with a central server and there goes some of your allowance. It's a crap idea. Already I've had to buy dlc for things that should have been in the game like the areas for assassins creed. It's a joke and we need to put a stop to it
@4p0k4lyps3n0w I'm glad that you caught the news before you gave them your money. @scooby3474 Yeah they don't appear to care about their customers, just their money. @Prometheus Too right, SP Pass should equal no sale.
What about the people who buy it new and aren't able to go online. They're pretty much screwed on that extra content thats supposed to be in the game.
my finger was hovering over the pre-order buy button, and then i remembered, "oh i better google rage drm" just to check. well what do you know? figured id was smarter than this. i've been loyal even considering those recent atrocious flops. but moves like this are not something i like. make a good game and it will sell. maybe it won't be like an MW2 titan, but, really, game studios make games because they like making games. making (tons of) money is a happy consequence. if id ever reads these boards, don't put any stupid drm on rage. please.
@ADDADAC Thanks for the link. Yeah he's trying to spin what he said. If it's a extra then they shouldn't send reviewers the content, but they will because it's part of the game and not extra. And if he thinks that a SP Pass is going to help them sell the game he will soon discover that he is wrong.
in the video he says, "it encourages people to buy the game", he should see the comments on this page
@Yulaw2000 http://www.gametrailers.com/video/pax-2011-rage/720448#comments_top go to about 2:45, sounds like he's heard complaints and is trying to justify the sp pass or trying to word it differently
@Baroni88 Thanks for seeing it from our side. It's encouraging when someone takes a step back to consider all the facts.
@Yulaw2000 I can see why it's not right. You're right, there really is no point in taking it out, besides trying to make more money off the release date and to make people pay an extra $10 for that content is ridiculous. So, I do understand why everyone is against it.
@Baroni88 Like I have already said to speed_aholic, if you read some of the previous comments I think that you will agree that this is something that we should not support. And this is not extra content. It's something that was always meant to be in there. They are taking it away.
Lets be honest here, how often do people buy used games. I do occasionally. THis is not going to affect my decision to buy the game. I am pre-ordering so I'm excited. And I'm EXTREMELY excited about extra hidden content. This game will kick some SERIOUS a$$!!
Yes I know were you are coming from. It's not as bad in the UK but they are still over priced. When I was a kid I couldn't afford new, but pre owned got me into gaming, and now I buy a lot of new games, but if I hadn't had used as a option back then I probably wouldn't be a "gamer" now. That's one of the reasons why this greedy attitude from publishers isn't good for the future of gaming. They are going to alienate people that would otherwise be big customers in the future.
I don't think many people see that in some countries games are ridiculously overpriced (Most new games in Australia are 110 dollars). Used is the best way of not bankrupting your wallet and now I buy older and older games to avoid content lock out, not fun.
@ADDADAC Yeah I think that some of them have been suckered in by corporate spin. I have come to believe that just like there are "fan boys" for one console or developer, there are industry "fan boys" too. They would rather the gaming industry try and sell us throw away shovelware with big brother DRM and no option to resale it than ever admit that there is something very wrong with the way things are going. But we are in the right, and if we stick to our guns, we can hopefully win some of them over to our side.
@Yulaw2000 You know one problem i have with people who are pro drm and pro online pass (the comsumers, not the game industry people), is that when we compalin about this crap, they get mad at us at and think that we should support it just for the sake of supporting it. "But game industry needs more money to make more games." says drm and pass supporters. The truth is if every pc game has always on drm, i'll stop playing pc games. If every console game has online or has locked content, then ill stop playing console games. Then i won't give a crap if games are stop being made.
I'd like to rage out on this idiot and every other who thinks all this invasive drm bs is a good idea.
So you think that we are annoyed because we all planned on buying it used? That is not the case. Please read some of the previous comments to understand why this is a unacceptable move on the part of id and is not something that we should support. I think that if you give the arguments I and others have made your consideration, you will see that we are in the right.
hey its not like if you buy the game used your not going to be able to finish the game or anything theyr just taking away a couple side quests that have no real significance other than being fun. at least theyr not making you pay an extra $10 to play online or something like some of the games coming out. i was gonna buy this new anyway.
@ZoTrAcK Yes there are so many problems with this sort of stuff that you would think a long standing developer like id would know better than to use it. We can hope they will get the message and realize that they are wrong to try and pull this sort of game ruining rubbish.
Thats so sad, I was planning to buy Rage, probably the only game i'll buy this fall, but I'm currently boycotting that kind of tactic... Dirt 3 did that during the PS3 downtime and the content was locked to everyone because of that. You just got a really bad idea and lost a sale of an original copy...
Rage has a bit more hype than you may think (It is made buy the people that made Doom), so this can make a difference. and as I have explained, what they are doing is worse as this content isn't extra. They have admitted that this was supposed to be part of the game and they have removed it. I do believe that other games have had similar things before, but In my personal experience the lack of any extras have never made the game feel less complete. Zaeed from ME2 for instance was not a complete character. If you talked to him in his part of the ship, instead of being able to converse with him, he simply rambled on with him self about the old times, so instead of making the game feel more complete, he made the game feel less complete, so I didn't mind him being a detached download/locked content. Also Mr Willits has made it clear that he would like to push for always online, and if they succeed with this SP Pass then they may implement such a system into Doom 4. I recognize that Blizzard are doing that with Diablo 3 but they unfortunately have an excuse for doing so, as in that game players are going to be able to sell in game items for real money and as such have a responsibility to the players to stop people from hacking the game. Mr Willits has admitted to wanting use the example of Diablo 3 to force that system on players for no good reason. By boycotting his game we can show him that we are not going to fall for that.
I don't understand though why Rage is the target instead of something that might make a difference. Rage doesn't have nearly the hype of other titles with even worse "incentives" buy battlefield 3 new or else you can't play multiplayer, buy diablo 3 and always be online etc. To me this Rage thing seems the same as any other game that has unlockable content with new purchases like every bioware game that has come out after ME1.
@stan_boyd Not to worry, at least we have succeeded in getting Rage out of the top ten. And thanks to your continued contribution to this page you have helped get it into the hot stories category, which in turn has got people to read it and choose not to buy rage, so even if you don't want to start your own boycott, you have at least helped us with ours.
@yulaw2000 I don't expect to get it out of the top 10, it will prob be there for a while because of the hype surrounding it. People love the Diablo series, why they do I will never understand but different strokes for different folks I suppose.
If i were to buy Rage used, I wouldn't dare to pay for single player content that should otherwise be there. Might as tell gamers they have to buy a pass just to see the ending... Nice try. (Still not happy about the lackluster multiplayer mode. wtf.)
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