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Question for Mindstorm
toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Jan 25, 2013 10:21 am GMT

Mindstorm, do you know of any online forums for Koine/NT Greek discussion?

I was going to join B-Greek and then they tell me I have to change my username to my "real" name. I was hoping they would be fooled with the pseudonym I provided them but alas, didn't work. I told them I wouldn't change my username to my "real" name. Why should I? I'm not a professor/scholar/pastor/whatever, many of which I see posting on that website. However, I should NOT need to post my real name on an internet forum. I already have to do that with job stuff and I would, well, like what privacy I have.

Anyway, I'm wondering if you know of any? Preferably not mailing lists but online forums. I can't really find any, at least any online forums that won't require me to use my real name. Where does this "use real name" stupidity come from? My questions weren't even regarding Greek grammar at all.

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

mindstorm  
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Jan 25, 2013 4:47 pm GMT
That is a little odd. I have known of some online communities in the past to require actual names but the following revolts usually stop it.

As for answering your question, I honestly have never encountered an active forum online that deals with New Testament translations. I searched Google but most of the forums I found were extremely inactive. About the best idea I can think of is to try to find an active forum that is a more general forum related to Christianity as opposed to one specifically related to translation work. I assume that if the community is large enough that there is bound to be people who are learning Greek.
toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Jan 25, 2013 5:45 pm GMT

mindstorm wrote:
That is a little odd. I have known of some online communities in the past to require actual names but the following revolts usually stop it. As for answering your question, I honestly have never encountered an active forum online that deals with New Testament translations. I searched Google but most of the forums I found were extremely inactive. About the best idea I can think of is to try to find an active forum that is a more general forum related to Christianity as opposed to one specifically related to translation work. I assume that if the community is large enough that there is bound to be people who are learning Greek.

B-Greek appears to be the most active NT Greek forum on the internet. But they want you to use your real name, which I find very odd. The question is why? When a moderator contacted me I was told I had to change my username to reflect my "real" name or I couldn't post anything. I said fine then, I'll take my interests elsewhere. Maybe B-Greek wants your real name for conspiracy reasons or the fact that professors and scholars post there. I'm not either of those.

I did ask one of my questions on a Catholic forum but didn't get very good answers. I suppose I could ask on Christianforums (as there are people there who can read NT Greek, but there are very few posters there) regarding the material, but I doubt most people are familiar with John Dobson's or Ian McNair's teaching methods.

Since you're here maybe I can ask one of them: how necessary is it to learn all the Greek accents (not referring to smooth/rough breathing accents) on the words? I never really paid attention to the different accents because Dobson and McNair don't print the accents on their words (besides smooth/rough) and barely talk about them. I've heard that the different accents really don't do anything for pronounciation but can help you identify different meanings in some cases. Dobson apparently included the accents in the 3rd edition of his book, which I bought and am waiting to see how it differs from the earlier editions of his book. I'm not exactly sure what's added in the extra 100 pages of Dobson's 3rd edition (his 1st edition one is only 300 pages!) because I don't have it in my hands yet.



Edited on Jan 25, 2013 5:46 pm GMT

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

mindstorm  
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Jan 26, 2013 3:22 am GMT
As far as accents go, most Greek teachers do not try to teach them. Any time a student in one of my classes has asked the professor what they are, he has mostly stated that we should not worry about it as it seems to help more with pronunciation than interpretation. What you can know, however, from the accents is which syllable to stress. It's that stress in pronunciation that seems to be the point of them rather than the conveyance of meaning. At the least, in the semesters of Greek that I have taken we were never told to study them or given information beyond this.
Wren28  
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 29220
Jan 31, 2013 4:43 am GMT

Who says you have to give them your actual real name...why not use John Smith or John Smythe...or make up some name that sounds completely real that you will remember...they won't know it's not really your real name.

toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Feb 1, 2013 10:11 pm GMT

Wren28 wrote:

Who says you have to give them your actual real name...why not use John Smith or John Smythe...or make up some name that sounds completely real that you will remember...they won't know it's not really your real name.

That's the thing, I used a pseudonym. But they somehow figured out my real name, not sure how. Maybe my email address?

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

Wren28  
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 29220
Feb 2, 2013 2:36 am GMT

Make a new e-mail address on yahoo or hotmail not using your real name at all but a totally other pseudonym and then join the site.

toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Feb 2, 2013 9:24 am GMT

CARM forums apparently have a "biblical languages" sub-forum, but that website is a hell hole, probably the incarnation of Hell on Earth itself.

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Feb 2, 2013 9:47 am GMT

mindstorm wrote:
As far as accents go, most Greek teachers do not try to teach them. Any time a student in one of my classes has asked the professor what they are, he has mostly stated that we should not worry about it as it seems to help more with pronunciation than interpretation. What you can know, however, from the accents is which syllable to stress. It's that stress in pronunciation that seems to be the point of them rather than the conveyance of meaning. At the least, in the semesters of Greek that I have taken we were never told to study them or given information beyond this.

I know this is unrelated to your response, but I did not know John H. Dobson (the author of "Learn New Testament Greek") has been dead now for 8 years. This is depressing, I was hoping to meet him in person (somehow, I don't know how) and thank him for his inductive teaching methods. He wanted to make biblical languages (Greek, Hebrew) known to all and he shows so much enthusiasm in his books for teaching these languages. I could imagine how fired-up a professor he would be if he taught one of my classes; most professors I have had generally could care less about their students or teaching their subject matter (I would only nominate 2 of the professors I've had in my undergrad years as "teacher of the year" awards). I would think J.H. Dobson had such a passion for teaching, because most don't, and he sounds devoted to his subject matter.

If only all teachers employed inductive learning methods to master foreign languages, and make them enjoyable to learn at the same time our friend J.H. Dobson does.

R.I.P J.H. Dobson

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

mindstorm  
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Feb 3, 2013 9:53 pm GMT
toxic_jackal wrote:

mindstorm wrote:
As far as accents go, most Greek teachers do not try to teach them. Any time a student in one of my classes has asked the professor what they are, he has mostly stated that we should not worry about it as it seems to help more with pronunciation than interpretation. What you can know, however, from the accents is which syllable to stress. It's that stress in pronunciation that seems to be the point of them rather than the conveyance of meaning. At the least, in the semesters of Greek that I have taken we were never told to study them or given information beyond this.

I know this is unrelated to your response, but I did not know John H. Dobson (the author of "Learn New Testament Greek") has been dead now for 8 years. This is depressing, I was hoping to meet him in person (somehow, I don't know how) and thank him for his inductive teaching methods. He wanted to make biblical languages (Greek, Hebrew) known to all and he shows so much enthusiasm in his books for teaching these languages. I could imagine how fired-up a professor he would be if he taught one of my classes; most professors I have had generally could care less about their students or teaching their subject matter (I would only nominate 2 of the professors I've had in my undergrad years as "teacher of the year" awards). I would think J.H. Dobson had such a passion for teaching, because most don't, and he sounds devoted to his subject matter.

If only all teachers employed inductive learning methods to master foreign languages, and make them enjoyable to learn at the same time our friend J.H. Dobson does.

R.I.P J.H. Dobson


I once had a New Testament professor who would explain the text of Scripture by directly walking us through the Greek text. He had the text laid out on the board and he would expound it by way of diagramming the grammar. Because of his understanding of the text he was extremely capable of explaining the various nuances of the text that gave rise to his life being in more alignment with the text. He practiced what he preached and he preached the Word of God.

His way of simply walking us through various passages in the text gave me a greater passion for what is referred to as discourse analysis. This way of explaining the overarching points and central messages of the text has greatly affected my own way of reading the text of Scripture even in English.
JoeRatz16
Level 16
Magician Lord
Posts: 757
Feb 7, 2013 1:46 pm GMT
toxic_jackal wrote:

mindstorm wrote:
As far as accents go, most Greek teachers do not try to teach them. Any time a student in one of my classes has asked the professor what they are, he has mostly stated that we should not worry about it as it seems to help more with pronunciation than interpretation. What you can know, however, from the accents is which syllable to stress. It's that stress in pronunciation that seems to be the point of them rather than the conveyance of meaning. At the least, in the semesters of Greek that I have taken we were never told to study them or given information beyond this.

I know this is unrelated to your response, but I did not know John H. Dobson (the author of "Learn New Testament Greek") has been dead now for 8 years. This is depressing, I was hoping to meet him in person (somehow, I don't know how) and thank him for his inductive teaching methods. He wanted to make biblical languages (Greek, Hebrew) known to all and he shows so much enthusiasm in his books for teaching these languages. I could imagine how fired-up a professor he would be if he taught one of my classes; most professors I have had generally could care less about their students or teaching their subject matter (I would only nominate 2 of the professors I've had in my undergrad years as "teacher of the year" awards). I would think J.H. Dobson had such a passion for teaching, because most don't, and he sounds devoted to his subject matter.

If only all teachers employed inductive learning methods to master foreign languages, and make them enjoyable to learn at the same time our friend J.H. Dobson does.

R.I.P J.H. Dobson

Hopefully one day, you will meet Dobson in Heaven, and then you can thank him.

Edited on Feb 7, 2013 1:46 pm GMT

Deus Caritas est

toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Feb 17, 2013 6:38 pm GMT

Ok another question for you Mindstorm:

I appear to now be having problems with trying to remember all the verbs I'm learning. I write everything down on notecards but I'm almost thinking of making my own "lexicon" of all the NT Greek words and their tenses/meanings in an excel spreadsheet. Problem is, upon doing one chapter of words and their tenses in an excel spreadsheet, I was ready to bang my head against a wall. I just don't feel like I can sit here and type up an entire lexicon of all the gazillion tenses and endings of nouns, verbs, etc.

I would love to have an excel spreadsheet of all these words from Dobson's book, but it just feels too tedious and irrational for me to do. But then I have a gigantic stack of notecards that I also don't have the patience to look through if I forget the original meaning of a verb, noun, etc. The idea of an excel spreadsheet sounds good because if I need too, I can just ctrl+f to search for the meaning of a word. But again, VERY time-consuming and boring for this short-attention span brain.

I do have 2 some-what nice lexicons (hard copy; book) but I don't feel like I want to stray from Dobson's definitions yet. When I open up e-sword on my laptop I notice the Greek and Hebrew translations of the Bible are linked with Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionaries; are there hardcopies of these Strong's Hebrew+Greek dictionaries that give the exact definitions as they do in e-sword? Strong's numbers and definitions actually appear very helpful to me.

So, I'm wondering what I should do?  

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

mindstorm  
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Feb 18, 2013 5:05 pm GMT

toxic_jackal wrote:

Ok another question for you Mindstorm:

I appear to now be having problems with trying to remember all the verbs I'm learning. I write everything down on notecards but I'm almost thinking of making my own "lexicon" of all the NT Greek words and their tenses/meanings in an excel spreadsheet. Problem is, upon doing one chapter of words and their tenses in an excel spreadsheet, I was ready to bang my head against a wall. I just don't feel like I can sit here and type up an entire lexicon of all the gazillion tenses and endings of nouns, verbs, etc.

I would love to have an excel spreadsheet of all these words from Dobson's book, but it just feels too tedious and irrational for me to do. But then I have a gigantic stack of notecards that I also don't have the patience to look through if I forget the original meaning of a verb, noun, etc. The idea of an excel spreadsheet sounds good because if I need too, I can just ctrl+f to search for the meaning of a word. But again, VERY time-consuming and boring for this short-attention span brain.

I do have 2 some-what nice lexicons (hard copy; book) but I don't feel like I want to stray from Dobson's definitions yet. When I open up e-sword on my laptop I notice the Greek and Hebrew translations of the Bible are linked with Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionaries; are there hardcopies of these Strong's Hebrew+Greek dictionaries that give the exact definitions as they do in e-sword? Strong's numbers and definitions actually appear very helpful to me.

So, I'm wondering what I should do?  

1. I am somewhat wondering how you are learning your parsings.  As it goes, if you learn this chart you will be absolutely golden for translating verbs. I recommend making individual index cards with each word, starting first with Present Active Indicative and slowly working your way through.  It's also a good thing to get a rhythm going in your head as far as these go. For instance, for Present Active Indicative, I learned o, eis, ei, omen, eti, ousi in that order which helps me identify that verb.  The same goes for the rest of the charts, just remember what distinguishes them. For example, Future Active Indicative verbs as a sigma to the Presant Active Indicative. As such, all you need to remember is root+s+PAI ending=FAI

2. This website will be your friend when you actually translate: Scripture4all.org

The site has all of the verb tenses already parsed but I do very much recommend that you figure out how to do it yourself. Otherwise you end up using this as a crutch and you do not learn.

3. I ended up getting a Bible with all of the verbs parsed. Common verbs are in the back of the book and uncommon are on the bottom of each page. However, the above resources are free.

toxic_jackal
Level 43
Sword of Sodan
Posts: 1945
Feb 19, 2013 6:00 pm GMT

I don't think I was making myself clear in my question. I'm not having any trouble learning the parsings (at least for now). What I'm having trouble with is sometimes being reintroduced with a word later (something very general, such as apangell(oh) or apostell(oh). Obviously if I see the parsings or different tenses I know which they belong to. It's just the main root meaning I may forget. Though to be honest, I haven't had too much problems with any of the translation exercises thus far. For some reason, I'm having trouble with trying to memorize the 4 different cases of the personal pronoun "you" (soi, etc.).

Yes, I am a notecard nazi so I notecard everything, at least as much as I am confident in knowing. If I'm given a verb, I do the full "-oh, -eis, -ei, -omen, etc." as well as with the other tenses. I feel like I need to do a full review exercise of all my vocab words though. I was thinking of putting up an excel spreadsheet for reference at least, but it feels just too time consuming. I have no patience with excel to begin with. Thanks for the ideas though. I will check out that NT for beginners.

Do I murder when I forget you from afar? Too drunk on the poison of endless roads and the countless smoky bars.

mindstorm  
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Feb 19, 2013 7:11 pm GMT
So then you are having trouble identifying the root and recalling vocabulary?

As far as this goes, what helps are knowing the possible endings that you could have, removing them, and adding the ending your are accustomed to. You are not required to memorize every possible spelling of every form of every word. If you simply understand the general rules in how words change and remember your basic vocabulary then you should be fine. Remember, you only need to read it, not write it.

With memorization, some words I could remember easily, some I still do not know all that well. Most nouns and verbs I can learn easily enough but I personally struggle with confusing prepositions, pronouns, and demonstratives. I do not know why, they just do not click within my mind. My advice is just review, review, review.
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Forums - The Christian Union (union board) - Question for Mindstorm